tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6807386654523336456.post1059805967283725561..comments2024-03-22T16:14:12.974-04:00Comments on Old Long Island: 'Greentree'Zach L.http://www.blogger.com/profile/04464823999255502522noreply@blogger.comBlogger40125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6807386654523336456.post-26497621291700540982012-02-14T20:12:17.975-05:002012-02-14T20:12:17.975-05:00Anon -
It isn't one trail...it's many tr...Anon - <br /><br />It isn't one trail...it's many trails scattered throughout the entire Village of OW. Some are long, some are short. Many run through the woods in SUNY OW. Some run into Brookville where there are many more.<br /><br />They all run in between private property so there are occasional rare glimpses you can see of the back of a big house.Zach L.https://www.blogger.com/profile/04464823999255502522noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6807386654523336456.post-83407319172621774972012-02-14T19:57:23.175-05:002012-02-14T19:57:23.175-05:00Has anyone walked the old westbury horseman's ...Has anyone walked the old westbury horseman's trail? Is there anything to see of interest? Does it pass any estates that can't be seen by driving past them? Does it go south of the LIE?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6807386654523336456.post-33428701844895916432012-02-14T11:31:03.910-05:002012-02-14T11:31:03.910-05:00Zack. forward the email to every village trustee o...Zack. forward the email to every village trustee on Long Island, they might actually learn something in one of those workshop oh, right, who am I kidding?archibuffnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6807386654523336456.post-83499350414293243742012-02-14T11:29:47.327-05:002012-02-14T11:29:47.327-05:00I'm not trying to let anyone off the hook for ...I'm not trying to let anyone off the hook for the destruction of any historic house. <br /><br />Merely trying to point out that the desire of Ogden to retain the property for another 30 years and use it was clearly an impediment to the house being converted to an alternate use.<br /><br />If you want to put some kind of blame on Ogden for not being more noble and forgoing his own family's privacy and desire to retain his property for private use in the name of preserving the house his father purchased in 1908 that is certainly your prerogative.Zach L.https://www.blogger.com/profile/04464823999255502522noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6807386654523336456.post-12587897388200961332012-02-14T11:28:30.395-05:002012-02-14T11:28:30.395-05:00yes Kellsboro supplied the details about tax advan...yes Kellsboro supplied the details about tax advantages, but again, these homes are not suitable for most families, but are quite adaptable for other purposes so the fact that the families and towns are not open minded to adapt to different zoning, usage and preservation laws not only diminishes the beauty of their own towns but affects all of us with the loss of history.archibuffnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6807386654523336456.post-71804562692903772422012-02-14T11:24:05.372-05:002012-02-14T11:24:05.372-05:00Speak of the devil...this just landed in my inbox:...Speak of the devil...this just landed in my inbox:<br /><br />Learn about the New York State Historic Rehabilitation Tax Credit<br />Thursday, February 16, 2012<br /><br />6:30-8:00pm<br /><br />Join HDC and neighborhood partner, the Two Bridges Neighborhood Council, to learn about available financial resources for rehabilitative work to your historic building.<br /><br />Where: Chinese Consolidated Benevolent Association (CCBA)<br /><br />62 Mott Street, Manhattan - Between Canal & Bayard Streets<br /><br />Invited Speakers: Council member Margaret Chin<br />Council District 1, Manhattan<br /><br />Beth Cummings, Historic Sites Restoration Coordinator<br /><br />Sloane Bullough, Historic Preservation Specialist<br />New York State Office of Parks, Recreation, and Historic Preservation<br /><br />Andrea Goldwyn, Director of Public Policy<br />The New York Landmarks Conservancy<br /><br />The State and Federal Government now subside up to 40% of qualified rehabilitation projects through existing and new historic preservation tax credit programs. Developers and homeowners have successfully used these credits to rehabilitate historic buildings for residential and commercial use. Come learn how to access State and Federal Historic Preservation Investment Tax Credits to maintain & rehabilitate historic properties.<br /><br /><br />If you own and/or develop buildings listed in the State and National Register, don’t miss it! This workshop is open to everyone! Whether your building is individually listed or a contributing resource to a designated historic district, join us and learn how to access these incredible benefits. While being listed on the National Register listing is honorific, there are no restrictions placed on private<br />property owners.<br /><br />Also learn about The New York Landmarks Conservancy‘s programs to help save and enhance homes, community cultural and religious sites and<br />neighborhoods. Over the past 40 years, the Conservancy has loaned and granted more than $36 million and provided countless hours of pro bono<br />technical advice to building owners, both non-profit organizations and individuals.<br /><br />The workshop will take place in the historic headquarters of the Chinese Consolidated Benevolent Association, 62 Mott Street between<br />Canal & Bayard in Manhattan, a contributing resource to the Chinatown & Little Italy National Register Historic District. Chinese translation will be provided.Zach L.https://www.blogger.com/profile/04464823999255502522noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6807386654523336456.post-1583593290987721172012-02-14T11:23:47.249-05:002012-02-14T11:23:47.249-05:00Zach, unfortunately the tax laws really favor conv...Zach, unfortunately the tax laws really favor conversion of historic properties for commercial enterprises not so much for residential use, but these homes are ultimately geared for commercial/institutional adaption anyway. I also forgot that we are speaking about Old Westbury and not Newport or Charleston where preservation is in the blood of the town and its citizens and preservation started long long before any official tax incentives. One has to have the desire and determination, which doesnt live in OW. Plus, I was focused on Springhill and since it survived into the 70's, in good repair, there is no excuse for not making arrangements for its adaption to another use, no excuse. I am not letting them off the hook for that poor decision. <br /><br />Also the Phipps families Palm Beach home was quite enormous and it being in a residential location, there were probably no alternatives for its re-use, unless the town and citizens could come to terms with conversion to a small hotel or condos and we all know how well that idea would fly.archibuffnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6807386654523336456.post-43781008428432778902012-02-14T11:21:23.956-05:002012-02-14T11:21:23.956-05:00Regarding the Fed Rehabilitation Tax Credit:
&quo...Regarding the Fed Rehabilitation Tax Credit:<br /><br />"Can the 20% federal tax credit be used to rehabilitate an owner’s private residence?<br /><br />Answer<br />No. The 20% credit is available only to properties rehabilitated for income-producing purposes, including commercial, industrial, agricultural, rental residential or apartment use. The credit cannot be used to rehabilitate your personal residence in which you live."<br /><br />So it would apply to Banfi Vinters and their commercial use of 'Rynwood' it isn't applicable to an owner trying to stave off the burden of taxes with a private home. <br /><br />http://www.nps.gov/hps/tps/tax/incentives/essentials_2.htmKellsboro Jacknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6807386654523336456.post-17089137537758189622012-02-14T09:54:26.754-05:002012-02-14T09:54:26.754-05:00The Federal Rehabilitation Tax Credit, created in ...The Federal Rehabilitation Tax Credit, created in 1976, provided tax breaks and incentives for people to rehabilitate historic properties but doesn't mention tax breaks for already standing and in good repair historic structures.Zach L.https://www.blogger.com/profile/04464823999255502522noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6807386654523336456.post-39006682750397686212012-02-14T09:48:15.708-05:002012-02-14T09:48:15.708-05:00Landmark laws were brand new by the early '70s...Landmark laws were brand new by the early '70s (NYC's was less than 10 years old) and tax incentives for preservation didn't really exist at that time...it was all the demolition that took place during the era that spurred their creation.<br /><br />Also interesting to note that Michael G. Phipps is Peggie's brother.Zach L.https://www.blogger.com/profile/04464823999255502522noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6807386654523336456.post-44768472531537509792012-02-14T09:37:46.764-05:002012-02-14T09:37:46.764-05:00Excuses are many. If you are determined to tear so...Excuses are many. If you are determined to tear something down, very little will convince you otherwise. It doesnt have central air, the kirchen is old fashioned, the bathrooms need upgrades, the garage is not attached, the floors creak, its too dark, etc, etc.<br /><br />While every house doesnt need to be saved, many were needlessly demolished when they could easily have functioned very well in another capacity. (Is it such a waste of materials, resources, craftsmanship, etc to demolish one of these well built homes) Plus there have been so many preservation tax incentives and landmarking laws that have helped many people preserve their properties, those quotes above are just excuses and a sad reflection on how we view our heritage, but it comes down again to the families interest in pursing alterenatives and other options. Obviously Ogden Phillips had no interest whatsoever except to keep people off his Springhill property.<br /><br />Its also ultimately not about living in these homes as many are impracticle for a family today, Its about securing a significant architectural building's future in any one of a few hundred possible alternatives to demolition. It has to be ones determination to do it. As with Peggie Phipps Boegner, she had the will and determination, but also the largese to save and share her families property with future generations of people to enjoy. There are very few people who possess such noble characteristics. Thank you to her.archibuffnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6807386654523336456.post-17535126858290062432012-02-14T08:28:52.742-05:002012-02-14T08:28:52.742-05:00And a little more from 1974...which is sure to irk...And a little more from 1974...which is sure to irk some people:<br /><br />"Just west of the former Garvan estate, Ogden Phipps is reported to have demolished the Georgian-style mansion of his estate, and Mrs. G. Macculloch Miller is said to have done the same on her property to the east. Their estates remain unsubdivided." <br /><br />"According to Peter D. Garvan, a lawyer who lives near the family's former estate, said the tax burden is a principal reason that owners demolish such mansions. But taxes are by no means the only reason."<br /><br />"They played no part at all for example, in the decision of Selig Burrows to raze the 37-room former Lehman mansion adjacent to his own ultramodern home in Mill Neck, he said the other day. Mr. Burrows recently acquired the 13-acre Lehman property with the intention of keeping it rented. But when the tenant moved, he was unable to rent it out or sell it, he maintained. "It was unfortunate and with great regret that I decided it had to be torn down" he said. "It couldn't be properly air-conditioned and it was no longer rentable or salable. The clincher was the energy crisis.""Zach L.https://www.blogger.com/profile/04464823999255502522noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6807386654523336456.post-398590382878043032012-02-14T08:19:21.967-05:002012-02-14T08:19:21.967-05:00This 1971 quote from Michael Grace Phipps (son of ...This 1971 quote from Michael Grace Phipps (son of John S. Phipps of OWG) perhaps sheds some light on the situation at the time (the article was about Palm Beach):<br /><br />"What will happen to Palm Beach then I don't know. Some people think it's progress and some don't. Nobody lives in his father's house today. I couldn't afford to live in my father's house and my children won't live in my house. They don't want to. That's what makes real estate, you might say."Zach L.https://www.blogger.com/profile/04464823999255502522noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6807386654523336456.post-12692147898457464782012-02-14T08:08:20.871-05:002012-02-14T08:08:20.871-05:00Just wanted to correct myself, Gladys Mills Phipps...Just wanted to correct myself, Gladys Mills Phipps passed away in 1970 not 1972.Zach L.https://www.blogger.com/profile/04464823999255502522noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6807386654523336456.post-56994954382074099932012-02-13T21:24:40.152-05:002012-02-13T21:24:40.152-05:00Sorry Cornelia...meant Ms.Sorry Cornelia...meant Ms.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6807386654523336456.post-69901517064717735352012-02-13T21:21:32.424-05:002012-02-13T21:21:32.424-05:00Is it true Mrs. Howard Phipps is a Whitney? Maybe...Is it true Mrs. Howard Phipps is a Whitney? Maybe that is why "Erchless" is so well preserved, (well, except for the fountain below the rear garden stair).<br /><br />I met her twice at a volunteers Christmas party at Old Westbury, and she seemed to be a very kind and down to earth woman.<br /><br />Too bad they don't keep horses anymore...the fenced horse area seems so lonely, (as with Miss. Guest's Templeton on I.U. Willets.)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6807386654523336456.post-41436594209473847142012-02-13T20:07:26.071-05:002012-02-13T20:07:26.071-05:00NSP
There actually are excellent tax incentives f...NSP<br /><br />There actually are excellent tax incentives for anyone who forgoes subdivision- issue remains of what to do with large properties. Cornelia Guest's property is, in my opinion, an excellent and sad example of another problem we face. It seems unlikely that someone who appreciates the wonderful house and grounds would possibly want to live on I.U. Willets Road-the poster child for how quickly a beautiful neighborhood can be destroyed.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6807386654523336456.post-35640445391482972202012-02-13T20:04:09.679-05:002012-02-13T20:04:09.679-05:00Mr. and Mrs. Howard Phipps Jr. still reside in ...Mr. and Mrs. Howard Phipps Jr. still reside in 'Erchless'. Not abandoned in the slightest...the grounds and house are kept in tremendous shape. <br /><br />The horse trails in Old Westbury are all over...something like 30 miles in total. The Old Westbury Horsemen's Foundation has maps... I assume someone at the Village hall could provide one.Zach L.https://www.blogger.com/profile/04464823999255502522noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6807386654523336456.post-71811007390583137902012-02-13T20:00:00.645-05:002012-02-13T20:00:00.645-05:00Zach where are the Old Westbury horse trails locat...Zach where are the Old Westbury horse trails located? I believe Ogden spent alot of time on his houseboat Chanticlear in Palm Beach. I was in Ogdens home in the lat 1980's he owned one of the largest collections of french style furniture in the world. His staff maintained his home very well. What are the plans for Erchless? It always looks deserted. Who lives there now? Who would I address a letter to?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6807386654523336456.post-11342242496032110282012-02-13T18:32:15.648-05:002012-02-13T18:32:15.648-05:00Certainly an interesting discussion with regards t...Certainly an interesting discussion with regards to how to preserve some grand estates while not mandating they become none-for-profit open tourist sites. <br /><br />Sadly there is a sentiment (and growing) that exists in the public and city halls whereby many don't want to shield "the rich" from what they perceive is their fair share of taxes. <br /><br />That foolish black and white view all too often ignores the fact that many of these grand homes almost cannot be given away and languish on the market for years despite prices being competitive for the square footage and/or land - yet its just assumed the owner must be wealthy and if they cannot afford it then so be it - sell it. (How many years has Cornelia Guest's Templeton sat on the market.) Then plenty of hand wringing when the owner takes drastic measures after bleeding ink for years and develops the old family manse or razes it. <br /><br />A private residence/owner receiving a special dispensation with taxes - in order to dissuade an owner from ruining a treasure - on the face of it would generate howls. While some communities do have some financial discretion say with an elderly owner, and land preservation activity more advanced, in general its hard not to foresee a backlash if the financials get out. <br /><br />Alas we are too often a petty nation that resents if x owner on 10-acres is paying less than the guy on 5-acres just because the one property is historic and the other isn't. <br /><br />I'd love to change the game but it really will be harder to do so with financial burdens with the State of NY and the patchwork of municipalities on the North Shore just likely to get worse in the decades to come.Kellsboro Jacknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6807386654523336456.post-5200157726734916192012-02-13T17:28:44.408-05:002012-02-13T17:28:44.408-05:00Yes, the burden and guilt also is with the towns a...Yes, the burden and guilt also is with the towns as noted, but when in possession of a nationally important building you make an effort to do something about its survival. You dont bring in the wrecking crew before exploring every avenue. Many homes on OLI are very nice and many are notable, but few could rank as leading examples of their design period. Springhill survived until the 1970's in private hands and could possibly be considered one of the last great mansions of its era on LI.<br /><br />If we had a rating system of landmark properties, as England does, this home would not have been destroyed without triggering some response. Anon 3:38 said Americans don't have the same sense of heritage and responsibility as Europeans do of their cultural and architetural landmarks, public or private. Sadly I am in agreementAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6807386654523336456.post-51760255964740679512012-02-13T16:53:10.888-05:002012-02-13T16:53:10.888-05:00NAP
I too think the demolition of Spring Hill was...NAP<br /><br />I too think the demolition of Spring Hill was a tremendous loss though hardly uncommon. I also think as Zach stated, or implied, in one of his many comments, that the fact that Stow built the house and that Ogden really had no particular sentimental attachment to it distinguishes this case from Greentree and Westbury House. Also, credit should be given for keeping the land intact for so long. Finally, when Dinny sold the property he went to great lengths to try and find a buyer who would maintain it. By the time Harbor Hill was demolished (shudder) the house had been empty for years and the great family fortune quite diminished. We can perhaps, frown upon the Mackay's for allowing the 300 year old, manageable and updatable, Underhill House on Factory Pond Road to be demolished at a time when they should have known better.<br /><br />I sadly concluded, long ago,after many years of arguing this very point with my father, that we cannot, and probably, should not, rely on families alone (usually with diluted fortunes and far flung heirs) to preserves huge estates and houses that are obsolete (particularly within commuting distance to NYC, where land is so valuable)-much as I love them. At the end of the day, I think the real fault lies in the villages (particularly Old Westbury) that stick to their outdated zoning codes which are predicated on the concept that as long as everyone has 2 (maybe 4 or 5) acres we will all be fine. Had they allowed/required flexible lot layouts, Knole's gates could have remained as the main entrance to the house and the allees could have been kept intact.<br />The few exceptions (Banfi/Rynwood, Ontare and further afield , Whitefield in Southampton) show that good things can be done.<br /><br />On another note, I agree Harbor Hill Stables were magnificent.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6807386654523336456.post-13369897632984125222012-02-13T15:38:35.551-05:002012-02-13T15:38:35.551-05:00I also feel "Spring Hill" is one of Long...I also feel "Spring Hill" is one of Long Island's greatest losses...what also bothers me is at the time of the demolition, Mr. Phipps was the richest man in America, I'm sure he could of set up some trust to insure the survival of his family estate, but American's don't feel the same way about family estates as do Europeans. <br />Also very sad about "Knole" being abandoned by the Martins. Although I do understand the children reside in Europe and Palm Beach, I feel they should have rallied together to save the home their Father loved till the end.<br /><br />I don't presume to know the Phipps family, but I feel the owners of "Erchless" are much like their cousin Peggy Boegner in loving and preserving their home. "Erchless" is one of the very,very few estates that maintains property, ( I hear that the only reason the high school was built, was that Mr.Phipps planned on donating the land, but forget to state on his passing, so he was somewhat forced to give the land sooner than he intended, so if not for that, he would still own up to Jericho.) And the house itself is perfect from what I saw of the outside on a garden tour.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6807386654523336456.post-69891073843184019892012-02-13T15:14:11.199-05:002012-02-13T15:14:11.199-05:00Firstly I want to make sure I am clear that I am i...Firstly I want to make sure I am clear that I am in no way defending the demolition of Spring Hill..it is in my top 5 all time favorites...but the point of everything I've said so far today was trying to point towards what I believe was the reasoning for the demolition...<br /><br />Ogden clearly wanted to keep the property following his mother's death in '72. He was 64 years old. His house on the property, which he had been living in since he was 21, was over 40 years old. There was no one to live in the main residence and by that time that kind of life style was disappearing (and the house was 70 years old). As luxurious as Ogden's own house is, it was much more befitting of the current lifestyle than Spring Hill was.<br /><br />Assuming the tale about the taxes is true...given he lived another 30 years, and assuming no increase in taxes (which is obviously unrealistic) at 80K a year it would have cost him close to $2.5 million over the rest of his lifetime, just in taxes, to keep Spring Hill standing...empty. Ogden was a businessman, and removing emotional attachment from it, it didn't make financial sense (no matter how wealthy the family) to keep it standing. <br /><br />That is what I believe to be the reasoning for it. It wasn't turned public because the family continued using the rest of the estate; stables, greenhouses, outbuildings and all. They clearly didn't want to let that go.<br /><br />I wish things had turned out differently.Zach L.https://www.blogger.com/profile/04464823999255502522noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6807386654523336456.post-57718620518575417452012-02-13T14:59:38.191-05:002012-02-13T14:59:38.191-05:00I guess the real reason there are such ambiguous e...I guess the real reason there are such ambiguous emotions about <i>Spring Hill's</i> demolition is the absence of any clear cut reason for it; if it had been dilapidated or fire damaged & ordered torn down for safety reasons, one could accept that. Even a crushing tax assessment would be understandable.<br /><br />But for such a dynamic home in good repair to be suddenly demolished leaves too many unanswered questions; I'll never forget the day, passing by, when I first noticed <i>Spring Hill</i> was no longer there, and the awful realization that these mansions I so loved were not eternal.lil' gay boyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10115496241247504856noreply@blogger.com